Dr. Reinhard Rauball first became our President some 40 years ago. At the beginning of each of his first three terms - 1979, 1984, 2004 - he was in demand as a "saviour". A few weeks ago, the 72-year-old lawyer was re-elected to office for a further three years - and talks here about his function that can be described as a "life's work".

Hello Mr. Rauball! You were once a fearsome defender. Do you still kick a ball around yourself these days?
Of course! Every week, time permitting! 

During the colder months probably indoors in the warm...
No, you should play football outdoors, when it is windy and in any weather! I play every Friday evening at 9 pm with my old friends from Eintracht Dortmund. This is a sacred appointment. If BVB has a game on Fridays, we swap to Saturday morning. And otherwise I enjoy playing for BVB’s Masters team.

What playing conditions does the President insist on for such games?
That is clearly defined. I always get the number 10 shirt, I’m guaranteed to play the full 90 minutes and get a bar of chocolate as well! This is the bare minimum.

In 1979, you assumed responsibility as BVB President for the first time. Symbolically, it fits in quite well that the last few weeks have been rather like a mirror image of the past 40 years. How do you cope with the constant ups and downs?
Oh, if you do something for as long and as intensely as I do my job at BVB, then a heavy defeat in Munich does not shake you up too much. Although I have to say that the performance against Bayern was not worthy of a club like Borussia Dortmund, not in its structure nor does it fit into the success story of recent years. It does not matter. Life goes on, as a famous philosopher once said.

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The philosopher Reinhard Rauball once said: For Dortmund four things are important: coal and steel, beer and Borussia. Not much has remained of those.
Unfortunately not. Dortmund was once world famous for coal, steel and beer. When I first came here in 1960, Dortmund had eight breweries. Eight breweries! No one talks about coal and steel anymore. Only Borussia has remained. Indestructible. Over the last 40 years, we have proved this on a few occasions.

You came to Dortmund with your family as a 14-year-old. By this age you have usually chosen the football team to support. There was not much choice in your hometown of Northeim. These days, many “glory hunters” choose to support Bayern.
Bayern was not a factor back then, at least not in its current size and dimensions. Northeim is located in southern Lower Saxony, so lies in the Hamburg catchment area, but I was not a HSV fan and have never watched one of their games. The right step to football came after our move to Dortmund in 1960.

You came into your position at BVB by chance. 
By a beginner’s mistake, the likes of which never happened to me again. I was a young 32-year-old lawyer in a renowned Dortmund law firm, which also represented BVB and through which there was a personal contact to the club.

Back then BVB was a little chaotic.
Oh yes! Firstly, the Board all resigned, then withdrew their resignations, and then the President resigned and withdrew his resignation again. President Heinz Günther was a very honourable man, a director at the mine in Gneisenau. He just did not want to do it anymore. There was also friction between the coach Carl-Heinz Rühl and the team. And no new President was in sight at all. One day, the Chairman of the Board at the Stadtsparkasse Bank in Dortmund, an influential member of our business council, came to visit me. I did not know why, it could not be because of my bank account, that was in good order. The man thought it would be a good idea to make me President. I did not think so, but I was totally unprepared for this question. I said: No, I’m not doing that! But if you cannot find anyone else, you can call me again. Then he thought about throwing his arms up into the air and telling his people: We have someone, but he does not know it yet! Shortly after, I was elected to the position. 

In the spring of 1979, four players were older than you. How was such a young rookie accepted in the dressing room?
I knew that if I went in there with my knees shaking, I’ve lost once and for ever. So, I went into with self-confidence, introduced myself and said what was on my mind. Firstly, we had to avoid relegation, then lay the economic basis for a better future. After talking to the team, I recognized the problem with the coach so we had to part company with Calli Rühl. After that, we needed a coach, who, disrespectfully speaking, would keep the team off our backs for six months. Uli Maslo knew right from the start that he would only be a temporary appointment, coaching until the end of the season.

You wanted a big name: Udo Lattek!
He was thrilled with the idea of ​​rejuvenating the team and building something new with young players from the youth teams here. Eike Immel was already playing in goal aged just 17 and then Michael Zorc, Ralf Loose and Ralf Augustin came along with Erdal Keser arriving a year later. Somehow, we had to get the crowd back on our side. When I started, we had an average attendance of 20,000. That was not what we were striving for and economically it was an unsatisfactory basis too.

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In 1979, Udo Lattek was the most successful coach in Germany, a three-time Bundesliga champion with both Bayern and Gladbach and the current Uefa Cup winner. A then 32-year-old Reinhard Rauball called and persuaded Lattek to join what was, at the time, a mediocre Bundesliga club in Borussia Dortmund. How did you manage that? 
I asked about his habits, met him in a pub in Cologne and we enjoyed a few Kölsch beers together. Then it either works or it doesn’t. It worked with Udo. In the end he just wanted to know: Do we have to do sign this now? My answer was: I'm a lawyer and that's what I learned in my studies.

On photos back in those days, your extravagant glasses stand out. Did you steal them from Elton John? 
Hmm, did he wear those too? We've actually met, it must have been in the late seventies, early eighties, when he was Chairman and Owner at Watford.

Another funny anecdote from your first term in office: In the summer of 1979, you turned out for your old club Eintracht Dortmund in a pre-season match against BVB. How did that come about? 
You know, it was a type of transfer fee game. I grew up as a footballer at DSC 95 and was part of the committee after the merger with Eintracht. Then came BVB’s request to take over as President so I said: Okay but for that you have to play a friendly against us too. And of course, I wanted to play as well. After all, we played in the fourth division, we were not a pub team. 

We have a nice photograph here with you challenging Manni Burgsmüller. Both seem totally focused on the ball, nobody wants to be second best. 
If you look closely, you will see that the photo is taken at a corner. Both of us want to get to the ball first, he wants to score, I want to prevent exactly that. This is how football works, in the Bundesliga as well as in the amateur game.

BVB won 9-0 with Burgsmüller scoring five goals. Couldn't the coach have given you another opponent to mark? 
No way! He asked me earlier: Who do you want to play against? Me: against the best of course, against Burgsmüller!

He pulled the gold necklace off your neck during the game.
I don’t think it was Manni, but Wolfgang Vöge. I was probably too quick for him, and that was the option he had. Only joking! Seriously: the atmosphere was always very friendly on the pitch and I still today have a very good relationship with all former players. I play tennis with Lothar Huber and had a very good relationship with Manni Burgsmüller until his death last May, and nowadays with Rüdiger Abramczik, Mirko Votava, Jupp Tenhagen, Erdal Keser and so on. Even Marcio Amoroso, whose signing I had heavily criticized because it was financially irresponsible, hugged me 18 months ago during a visit to Dortmund. If you call into the forest, it echoes.

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In your first term, you consolidated the club economically and on the pitch. How many mandates did President Rauball's honorary commitments cost lawyer Rauball in his main job?
Oh, I cannot say exactly, but it became very complicated. At the same time, as a young family man with a wife and two daughters, I also had to somehow earn some money. As President of a Bundesliga club, you were not only a representative and head of the board, but also a manager. I held negotiations with players and coaches on my own.

Which were the toughest?
Definitely with Manni Burgsmüller. He had some serious arguments, firstly with Calli Rühl and then after he left with Uli Maslo as well. He had dropped him to the bench in the previous home game and then sent him to warm up, but did not put him on as a substitute. Manni felt deeply humiliated and said: Do whatever you want, I'm definitely leaving! It took a few conversations to convince him to stay. Under Udo Lattek the following season, he was our top scorer and took over the captaincy.

If someone had told you back then that you would twice come back as a saviour and work for so long at BVB...
That would have needed all my powers of imagination. I wanted to see out the three years and then finish! I liked being a lawyer, enjoyed the work and had a lot of fun doing it. Nobody remembers anymore but at that time I was the first lawyer in Germany to have a teaching assignment on “Sport and Law” at the University of Bochum Sports Institute. That was an entirely new direction in jurisprudence. Back then, sport was not so heavily burdened with legal problems, but that does not mean that there weren’t any.

Only two years after the end of your first term you had to return to the job. BVB had slumped again. 
BVB could not slump much lower. Debts ran into the millions and the team had dropped towards the bottom of the table. On this ominous weekend, I remember we lost 2-0 at home to Karlsruhe.

For weeks fans on the Südtribüne had been shouting: "Board, coach, Tippenhaus (Manager) OUT!" "Reinhard Rauball, come back to Dortmund!"
I can remember the first bit but not the second. I did not even watch the game against KSC, because I was with a friend for the weekend on his ship off the Dutch coast. Then we wanted to transport the ship back to Germany, but during the trip back a tyre burst on the trailer. That took ages. When I finally got home, my wife showed me a sheet of paper with a list of names on it who I definitely and quickly had to call back. They were all journalists and business council board members. Shortly after, I was installed by the district court as an emergency board member. My only condition was: everyone else must go!

You immediately fired the manager and the coach.
At first only the manager Hans-Dieter Reißhauer had to go. There were reasons for the decline. Before the season, our two top scorers Manni Burgsmüller and Rüdiger Abramczik were both sold. An unbelievable mistake, for which the manager was responsible. Immediately afterwards, I talked to coach Konietzka: Timo, if you think that I'm throwing you out, then you're wrong. I have just fired our manager. But the situation was too muddled so we had to act a bit later. Unfortunately, Timo’s time was up then. 

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The sporting situation was one thing but the financial situation was much more serious.
The DFB did not want to give us a license because of a "lack of economic efficiency," as it was termed in the statutes. We needed fresh money. In such a situation, you can go to your principal bank, which we did, but we received only a tired smile. You can also ask sponsors, but there were only a handful that advertised in our club programme. We only had the crowd receipts back then from a much smaller stadium and a lot of standing terraces. That was simply not enough, we were lacking 1.2 million DM.

You then made the most of your contacts.
At the time, I was Chairman of the Supervisory board for a Munich fashion company and my deputy was an influential person at Deutsche Bank. Ironically, in the very same week that the DFB demanded proof of liquidity from us, we had to fly together to a board meeting in Munich. We sat next to each other and I asked him for a loan for BVB.

And he didn't want to give it to you.
He actually insulted me but I will spare you the exact wording. Well, when I could not think of anything else to say, I said: Be careful, if you turn us down now, I will spread the word everywhere: Deutsche Bank is to blame for BVB not getting a license!

Clever!
Yes, but I have to admit in hindsight that I wasn’t serious. Anyway, he looked in shock and asked: How much is it? I wanted 1.2 million, but thought if I gave this sum he might only give me 500,000. So, I said: 1.8 million!

How much did you receive?
Not so fast! So we fly back from the meeting in Munich and are sitting next to each other so I asked again: Can’t you do something? You have the influence! He waved his hand dismissively and said: I already sorted that during the lunch break.

A nice punchline.
The punchline is still coming: Later, he called me and told me about a phone call with his boss Alfred Herrhausen. Before joining Deutsche Bank, he was on the VEW board in Dortmund. So my colleague called him and said: Doctor Herrhausen, yesterday I did your city a huge favour and granted BVB a credit guarantee of over 1.8 million. Silence ensued on the other end of the line.

Were you afraid that the deal could still collapse?
Absolutely! Alfred Herrhausen waited a little while before answering, in such situations, seconds seem like hours. Then he said: You have done well! But the story continued. Deutsche Bank held me as the personal guarantee for the loan. That cost me many grey hairs. I hope my wife does not read this interview; I never told her about it.

You managed to get the financial situation under control, but the sporting crisis continued until the end of your second term - until the relegation play-off game against Fortuna Köln in the 1985/86 season. After losing the first leg 0-2, shortly before the final whistle in the return leg, BVB only led 2-1 and were on the verge of relegation to the second division. Then Jürgen Wegmann forced a deciding match, almost stumbling the ball across the line to score. How many years did you age on this Whitsun Monday?
How old do you want to make me feel? But it’s true that this was a terrible afternoon for a long time. Later on, Rolli Rüssmann asked me: Do you remember that you were stood on the sideline just before the end? No, I didn’t know that. I was absolutely out of my mind. There was also a lot on the line for me personally. Who wants to go down in history as the President who took BVB into the second division? I will never forget Wegmann’s goal, and, my god, how long did he hesitate for! The goalkeeper threw himself to the ball but Wegmann still waited and waited, I was desperate and screaming: Shoot now! Until the ball finally went into the net! 

After the decider was won, I was able to say goodbye with a clear conscience and completed some important signings for the coming season: Thomas Helmer, Nobby Dickel, Frank Mill and Teddy de Beer. Soon afterwards, BVB managed to qualify to play in European competition again.

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And you gave your successor Gerd Niebaum his first taste of the football world.
True but that was actually my wife during the first term. She went to school with Gisela Niebaum. Once we were sat in a Dortmund pub and the Niebaums came walking in too. We had a nice evening, and at some point, Gerd Niebaum said casually: Mr. Rauball, I would like to do what you do. I forgot all about that until a few years later when the district court used me again as an emergency board member and we urgently needed a number two. My wife said at breakfast: Take Niebaum, he was interested!

How did you follow what your successor was doing?
He immediately offered me the chairmanship of the business council, but I did not want to do that. As you know, there are only two bad people, the predecessor and the successor. Firstly, I did not want to interfere with my successor and secondly, I didn’t want to become a permanent functionary. One thing I succeeded in doing, and the other ... well…

Under Niebaum BVB enjoyed a great run of success at first.
First the DFB Pokal victory, then the Champions League, twice Bundesliga champion with Ottmar Hitzfeld and later with Matthias Sammer – on the pitch that was an extraordinary time.

But even during the 2002 championship it was obvious that the conditions in Dortmund were not the same as in Munich or Hamburg. The team was simply too expensive to be financed on a long-term basis. Why did nobody want to see this?
I cannot answer this question.

Would you like to have had some insight?
That would have certainly made things a lot easier and some things would probably have developed differently. No super-expensive players like Marcio Amoroso, no stadium expansion and despite the interim IPO, we would not have come close to bankruptcy.

Towards the end of 2004 in the time of the greatest need you were asked for the third time.
I hesitated.

Your wife could not have been too thrilled.
I'm not going to tell you how she reacted, but in the end, she said: Do what you think is right! Like me, she knew exactly what to expect. The whole of 2004 was so extensively scrutinised by the media that outsiders would have had all sorts of question marks concerning the club. To become President therefore meant also assuming the chairmanship of the advisory board and the presidential committee. Together with my colleagues on the committees, we appointed the management and carried out controlling tasks, in particular approving the budget and investment plans for the respective financial years. Only somebody who knows this business could do that. If a candidate came in and had to get used to it, we would have gone to the wall. I did not want to blame myself for that.

You put yourself under so much pressure back then like you did with the man from Deutsche Bank: If Rauball does not take over, it's his fault that Borussia Dortmund no longer exists
You could put it that way. 

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A few weeks later, in March 2005, the legendary occasion took place in the Düsseldorf Airport event terminal. You had to convince subscribers of the real estate fund Moisiris to largely waive their claims, so that the club could buy back stadium shares and maintain its liquidity. From this day we also have a nice photo of you and Aki Watzke on the way to the event, when it was still unclear how the matter would pan out.
Can you see the briefcase I'm holding at the bottom of the photo? It should be in a museum by now. I still have it and the tie as well. That was an incredibly nerve-racking day. At the rescue in 1984 I had the absurd idea with Deutsche Bank, and we were able to solve the problem with a little bit of imagination. This was impossible in this manner with Moisiris. I do not know how many hours we sat there. Everything depended on the subscribers vote. On behalf of the people ... We needed consent from at least 75 percent for our restructuring concept. If we had 72 or 74, not bad results, everything would have been lost and we would have to file for bankruptcy immediately. The result was supposed to light up on the big screen in front of us.

Did you close your eyes?
I looked straight at it. We had no idea and no feeling how the whole thing would turn out. Out of around 5,000 subscribers, only 444 were present, not even ten percent. Did these people have Black & Yellow hearts? Or were they savers who wanted their money back? Nobody knew. I can still remember a conversation with a married couple, the man was silent but his wife told me: We will listen to the arguments, then I will decide. That would be a funny story, normally?

You probably could not laugh back then.
Only when the result appeared - 96.something.

Then a new success story began with you as President and Aki Watzke as Managing Director. Was he perhaps the best transfer of all your three terms? 
You could say that yes.

In 2004 you could not have envisaged holding office until 2019 and beyond.
No way. I was elected for three years until 2007. That was a crucial time with, at first, a reorganization phase with a substantial loan of €79.2 million from Morgan Stanley in the summer of 2006. Two years later, Jürgen Klopp arrived and footballing wise our situation improved dramatically. We were able to relatively quickly reduce liabilities from €122 million. I felt it was my duty to carry out all these things. Just think about the problems we had with the stadium: Before we got a deal sorted with Moisiris, we were paying between €17-20 million in rent each year. That was a highly-challenging financial and restructuring policy.

Even if it was not planned: has Borussia Dortmund become your lifetime project?
Maybe you do not necessarily need to choose these exact words, but if you enjoy 20 years at this intensity at the forefront of affairs, it is a position of high responsibility.

And everything began with this one sentence: If you cannot find anybody else...
You can be sure, in my next life, I will not utter this sentence again!

In between you were also the President of the German Football League (DFL) for a few years.
Yes, twelve years in total. That was another equally challenging and very fluctuating period, both domestically and internationally, with the highlight the 2014 FIFA World Cup as a member of the German national team delegation.

One of the tasks of a DFL boss is to hand over the trophy to the Champions at the end of the season. Mostly you had to congratulate the team from Munich.
Always Philipp Lahm. The very first time my youngest daughter told me: Dad, you have to tell Philipp: The trophy is only borrowed! For a long time that was a running gag between Lahm and I. Whenever we met, he said: I know, Mr. Rauball, the trophy is only borrowed!

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You had to wait until 2011 before you could finally hand over the precious trophy to Roman Weidenfeller. German champions Borussia Dortmund! In front of 80,000 fans at the SIGNAL IDUNA PARK. What a sublime moment! 
Amazing! It gives you a new lease of life. We followed it up the next season by winning the league and cup and then reaching the Champions League Final at Wembley. I felt this was a gift from the gods and above all, a gift for the fans for all their loyalty in those difficult years when they contributed a great deal to saving BVB.

In 2019 you had such high hopes of another championship that you did not travel with the original trophy to the Bayern game, but took a replica with you to BVB's away game in Mönchengladbach.
That was a great experience as well. The media are always saying: The Bundesliga has become so dreadfully boring! Many obviously forgot that two teams could have become champions on the final day last season. The question arose at the DFL: What are we going do for the trophy ceremony? In the end, CEO Christian Seifert went to Munich and I travelled to Mönchengladbach. Both of us wryly smiled at this job sharing.

Finally, the all-important question. Please do not take this disrespectfully but how long do you want to do this job for?
I thought that you would ask me that again. I started all my terms of office and only once did I give a definite finishing date because of my professional obligations as a lawyer. I was re-elected by the General Assembly on 24 November 2019. There is an enormous responsibility involved in this role and I want to and have to do it justice. After that, we will have to see but, in the end, the general meeting has to decide anyway.